Okay. Now I'm putting on the earrings. Fantastic, that's great. Latasha, I think you may have heard this when you re-listened to the recording, but, you buying those earrings and then saying what you did about them in the call, it fulfilled my whole, that just fulfilled all I wanted for this project. Somebody to buy some earrings because they thought it was interesting to have a little Engagement Experience and then carry them with them and wear them every one in a while and have people ask them about it. That was the original inspiration for the whole project was me going to a fair and we were doing outreach there, but it was the usual thing, the tabletop and the tent, and the hands-on activities with the kids. Which is fine, but I wandered around. I didn't have to do that, so I wandered around and I was like, "Where else could we fit in here?" And then I had that little spark within, was what do we have to do to get into the vending area. Nice, yeah. In my original spark, it was a pendant. That was my original. But you know, that's all right. I'm an earrings' person. I don't really wear that many necklaces.

One thing that's like looking at these "identity," "reach," "connections"...... Even just within what I do and what Emily does, I think that we have different identities, and it depends on the reach. I definitely know to talk a certain way or behave a certain way based on if I'm at a market that's really touristy. Or, if I'm at the local market where there's a beer garden, you know I can be a little bit more informal or maybe... The identity is kind of a little bit of a pendulum, based on setting. So maybe setting is a good one. Yeah, setting.

how is this merchandise going to then have a life of its own once it leaves you and part of that is having that merchandise, having the life as well as the person who's selling, it gives you some gives the purchaser either a story, or either the tools to be able to have the merchandise, have a life of its own outside of when it leaves the booth. Either by telling I bought this from a scientist who works on this or this actually represents this galaxy, or this is my sign. And, so I think that will be a way for this to actually be engagement because you want it to spark something into, in that person who actually bought it. You don't want them to say, Oh, I bought these earrings, but I'm never gonna wear them, but when they go out into the world and they put them on and like a special occasion, and then when people ask, what it says, and then they are able to like be science and become like a mini science educator

I think you kind of put the nail on the head or not the nail on the head or whatever. It's not just the, it's not do this science thing well, it's like, do the market well, or do the shop well, or do the website well. And if you do that and your primary goal is getting people excited about science, you're going succeed. But

I actually bought earrings. And one of the reasons why that I really honed in on buying those things was because of the talking with the scientists, and talking about her research and how that, and then part of the one thing that was the big selling point was these are real images and you're going to be wearing the cosmos. So, I think it's what is your message? As far as not just selling, but if you're doing some outreach part, and I would have like that little card that you had to show the different galaxies, if that actually came in, came with my earrings a little small, version of that, so that I could then if you want your merchandise, the people to take your merchandise, and then really talk about it with their friends, then have that and so that they can kind of remember what it is that I saw had the butterfly galaxy. And when people asked me about my earrings, I can say, "Hey, this is the butterfly galaxy." And then maybe we were talking about another thing was being able to have some dialogue with you. And if you had a Instagram page, and had people have it out, and this is where I wore my earrings, we talked about it, and be able to tag you and tell you about it. So I don't know, I guess it's your ultimate goal of what you want with this merchandise to do when it goes out into the world.

So we've talked a lot just over the past, I don't know how awkward it is for you Charity, but over the past 10, 15 minutes about who Charity is, which begs the question then, could anyone do this? And that's something that I've wondered about as I've tried to find a few examples to hold up of science engagement functioning in retail spaces. And in both cases, as it turns out, actually in both cases it's women who also happen to be astrophysicists who also happen to be really interested in fashion accessory work. So I wonder though, I mean Charity you have such a specific thing that you do and it's so unique as you said and it comes from a place that's really about your own unique identity and who you are. How do we try to hold this up as something that other people might want to try? That's a good question. I think, it's not about copying what I'm doing, it's about morphing it to what is already out there. And there's so many bases to cover. When you think about the retail world, you have markets like this, you have craft fairs, you have actual walk-in stores, you can go to conferences. There's all different kinds of conferences, you can go to women conferences, a bunch of people I know from the market do that. There's all these different places and I don't think that one company could go to all those places and do science engagement. I think you have to have different types. Whereas I would put myself in a really crafty, artsy type business, a lot of it's just me and what can I do in that lane. Then you would have people who are still active in academia, formal researchers who have great connections to science conferences, women in STEM conferences. What can they do in those areas. And I think the engagement component is completely different based on where you are and what you're doing.

I do think that there could be some positives in learning what people are interested in. And I don't know how to say this, but giving the people what they want. So by learning what's selling well and having it stay within the science branding, which I already, like I've already expressed, I feel like that's a challenge in itself to determine what is the science brand, what you want to focus on is infinite, I think. But anyway, if you have that opportunity you could actually investigate what gets people excited.

merchandise could make people feel a part of the community. I live by Yankee Stadium and every game, there's tons of people decked out with all their Yankee stuff, and their hats. And you know that people are going to this game, they're going to [crosstalk]. And it's a five dollar cap, but everybody has it, and they're signifying that they are going to this game and their part of this community. And, I wonder if we could think about how can we tie these communities together in a way that it makes people feel a part of the community. Not we're just making them buy stuff, but there's a way to engage, and you're learning stuff, and that you're part of this community, and that you're signifying that, and that you really love critical thinking, and you really love to ask questions and build on your curiosity.

Can I share something? I don't know if you know Becky. Becky Queen of Frocks at [inaudible]. She's in, she was originally in England, and now she's in Paris. She has her Esty shop and her online shop, she's very familiar to you, I think. She's also an astronomer. She does her shop full-time. But then she went to France and she was doing the markets, she had all her stuff lined up and she was like, "I'm not doing very well." And somebody came over and was like, "It's too pretty. It's too nice. It's too lined up. In paris, when you're at a market, people want to rummage through stuff. So you take all of these that you've got out on nice displays and you throw them in a basket and let people rummage through and find it." And I was like.. I do that now. What a cool thing. I think it's the mentality, like an arts market, that's also at a Farmer's market, and there's a vintage market. They do like flipping... It's like a treasure hunt. Yeah, I don't do nice displays. No. Wow. Yeah. Uh, man. That's situational awareness. Yeah, yeah. It totally is.

the idea I want to pose is, "Can we, what happens if we all bind together, breaking down these barriers of art and science, and then we change the culture of our society right now." Because I think you can agree with me, critical thinking is not in our culture right now. And a way to elevate critical thinking could be, a way, this connection between art and science. And then we break down that, and then people are critical thinkers and they want to be part of the scientific community. And part of the way they can be a part of the scientific community is having beautiful earrings like this, and then having that as a discussion piece. Just like people listen to podcasts so that they can talk about it later to their friends. Having these little bitty things that they can carry with them, and then say, "This is what I learned and I know this about this."

when you're looking specifically when you're going to a market, sometimes you're looking for one thing. I'm going to the market to find some leggings. But, then if go and see some science-y leggings, then maybe that could be a point for me to learn. But again, I think you have to have both that time to have that human engagement so that we can then build that connection for people to then have that emotional connection to actually want to actually buy it. So to be able to want to buy something, there needs to be some type of emotional connection towards it. And then Science Engagement can build to that emotional engagement because you could be like, "This is a cool thing because of x, y, and z." But it then takes time,

So encouraging agency in the sciences, which is like what my work has always been about. I think Latasha, you were saying that like, you want to encourage people to get excited about science, because you want to give them a sense that at least for non scientists, you want to give them a sense, like this is a space where you belong and where you're allowed to ask questions and where you're allowed to be an investigator and, and feel like you have agency in the scientific space. And if that's the goal using a commercial kind of outlet for that is in many ways, lentirely at odds with that, because it's about buying your way into a thing, Oh, by purchasing this thing, I have the capital to buy this thing, then I can be this thing, which I don't think any of us agree that's true, but I do think there is like an implicit messaging that's happening there. That's also kind of at odds with where we are in terms of thinking about the environment and our relationship as like stewards of the environment and not like just buying stuff for the sake of buying stuff. And so I wonder if there's a little bit of like when you're talking, I think this doesn't, it's not like this applies to Startorialist. I think it applies to like trying to be an advocate for this type of engagement at large for me, that's like a little bit of a point of friction.

And those kind of I guess kind of specialty shops or I can, me and my mom used to go to those things all the time and it feels like you've been, I go to those and it's a different experience from Aiden to go to Walmart or whatever like a big store, because then you're like going to these boutiques and you're getting to know the people and it feels like a different kind of shopping. And I think it's all about being then there's a loyalty there that gets that you then translate to other people because you're like, "Oh, I found this really cute shop." And then you want to buy from those people and then introduce your friends to this kind of special experience that you've had.

I just want to add as I'm going to come as a person who loves to go to these things and shop. And also I think that when you have those conversations, it adds to the experience. And then I come away with the merchandise that I feel good about. And something that I'm like, "Oh, I really remember why I bought this thing. And I want to shop more from those ... I want to get something else." When I'm thinking of buying more earrings. And I will remember that experience and then want to go back to that person.

General public is just like this catch all term. That doesn't it's not really descriptive in a helpful way for you as a purveyor of both things that you want to sell and a purveyor of knowledge that you want to integrate or weave into a conversation. And the idea that somehow you could just give that knowledge to people and they just kind of want it, I think, as an older model of thinking about science communication, where you're, you guys are experts and you're just dumping it on people that come to you. Whereas I think thinking like who is my audience? Why are they coming here? What did they want to know? And that's primary. And so that should be both primary for collecting information. So you can keep, I'm learning more, and more and more about who is a Startorialist fan? Why are they coming to you? Why are they buying things from, how do you differentiate those audiences?

But back to just the weird nuances, it's hard to explain the environment that I'm in and what I'm doing, but it's a lot of making sure that I have a very gentle approach and trying to keep things on a crafty level where I don't look like a museum gift shop, I don't look like a retail store that would be in Harvard Square, trying to get some people, while it's going to be a small number who aren't super excited about the word science to come in jut out of pure curiosity or because they see an interesting drawing or literally just something sparkly.

I think especially for someone like me, who has a hard time identifying as a scientist still because I'm not teaching in a college and I'm not actively doing research. This has been good for me to make sure that I'm promoting women in science, and younger people in science, and weird people in science. Not being that cookie-cutter. So that's a big, big thing I'm very thankful for with my shop.

I really do think that buying stuff is one of the ways that we show what has value, almost quite literately. Its also one of the ways that we remember things. Its one of the ways that we join groups, or show support for things. There's so many-this is just something that I don't stop thinking about this. The consumerism aspects I think are bad, but the-my gut tells me that its superficial, but I think it is actually so, so meaningful. What we buy, and what we give to people, and what we wear is who we are, and who we care about, and how we, it's almost a love language sometimes. Buying gifts for birthdays and new babies, and for weddings and things like that. It can be very, very personal, and very, very emotional.

this is just the way I've always thought of it, is working off of what is already the foundation of humanity, which is curiosity. Sharing knowledge. If we don't share knowledge, then we wouldn't be where we're at today. So, why do we get so offended when somebody tries to tell you something you didn't know? I've always-that's where I'm coming from, and I have to come from that way being in the art community, where people are super anti-ads, they hate Silicon Valley, they hate Pride month because of every corporation trying to make money off of it. So, that's kind of a little thing I have to pay attention to. I'm not saying-Marketing has stuff to offer, I just don't think it's the, "Wow, we have to learn from them," because I think there's a lot of different things we can do. But it's not making people want to do something, I just want people to go with the gut they had when they were a kid and they were asking "why" five times over and

The Marketing people know what they are doing, and they do it very well because everything about our culture is consumerism right now. They're doing it right and science should learn from where it's working and adapt it to our own. It may or may not be a little bit [inaudible], but I couldn't believe he said that about how it was not emotional. I was like, "No." Everything we buy is emotional. Even from choosing a different toilet paper brand or something like that, or ketchup. My husband, he bought Hunts instead of Heinz, and I was like, "No. Why did you do this to me?" It reminds me, there's a part in Tina Fey's book, it might be a generational thing. I got the impression that he was of an older generation than us perhaps. It may be a generational thing because there's a chapter in Tina Fey's book where she talks about her dad. And one of the things about her dad was that, she describes his generation as having no brand loyalty. Where he wouldn't be a Barnes and Noble person, what's the other one that went out of business, or a Border's person. There was no, it was like," It's a bookstore, there is no difference. But that's for us, our generation, everything is about emotional connections to brands and identity and being a part of a group and whatever Peloton is doing, I want to do that for science. That's just one of, there's probably a hundred different examples that we can pull from. But they're doing things very, very well, and we could learn about how to do that for science, and I think, do a lot of good in improving our community hopefully.

I think there's a commonality of human engagement. Even when you're online, even when you have the splashboard, you're still engaging with people. How can we still have this human connection, especially now in this, after this pandemic everybody's looking for connection. I think that this is, I think one way to make science accessible is to make sure we bring our humanity and our whole selves. Especially, I think what intrigues people about certain merchandise, it somehow invokes some kind of memory they have or something, some connection that they already had in their past, and this augments that.

Yeah, I think what I'm hearing that I really love about your story, Charity, is that you are redefining who is a scientist. And, what science looks like. Because, I think, it's both areas. It's also professional scientist are doing-and then people are like, "Oh but I'm not a professional scientist." But you are. Because science is an inquiry process. And I think that students, definitely kids, can really understand, "Oh maybe I didn't do well in school, but I really love curiosity. I really love asking questions." And that's actually what you need to do be a real scientist, is asking questions and following your curiosity. So, I think that, that's great. That is the best way to really break down those barriers, especially in a city that's so academically science. To show another place of science is probably really, really needed for everybody who doesn't feel like they belong in those big echelons of science.

There was this very brief moment at the beginning of the morning, or just early in the shift where this young woman came into the store. And I have to say she was overcome with joy at all of the items in the store. She got really giddy and excited and said something like, "I love every single thing here." And then Charity was engaging with her about what she was doing and she said she was going to Salem and then was going to come back. And so she didn't want to purchase anything at that moment, but I felt there was some gift that the store gave to this young woman in having objects that really connected with her. I mean, really connected on this emotional level. That I was kind of taken aback by how happy she was and it made me feel happy. It was contagious.

the whole experience from the beginning, middle, and end was positive, but the feeling at the event itself and I contrast that with lots of other public events that I go every week. In a couple days I'll be at the NASCAR race in Phoenix for Friday and Saturday, and I've been to hundreds and hundreds of NASCAR races and big sporting event. And many of those events because they are a little more transactional than the interactions with fans and people, and people selling licensed merchandise and Dale Earnhardt sweatshirts aren't personally invested, so it's much more a retail transaction. You don't get those same feelings. So I think it's important to recognize that it was a positive event and Charity and Laura were positive people

Yeah, I think there's just something about the level of excitement that people have when they're in a place that they know, "Okay, I like science or someone I care about likes science and I'm in a place where the person running the store or shop or whatever is like, I like science too." And so they get really free. And this woman came in and she was talking about her wife who's actually a science teacher or her friend was a science teacher but her wife works in science. And she, I forget what the brooch was, but it was Marie Curie or Annie Jump Cannon, it was one of the female scientists. And she was like, "I'm going to buy this and she is totally going to have an orgasm over this. Can I say that is that okay?" And she was so funny because she was so excited that this small thing was going to be so important to someone that she cared about and being able to share and express their love of science and respect for that. In such a funny and silly way. Yeah it was a Rosalind Franklin. Because she's like, "Oh, who's this?" And Laura's like, "Oh, Rosalind Franklin discovered the double helix structure of DNA." And she was like instantly, "Yes, I want that."

I think that there's another category that could be explored that's just about Charity's identity. We've now spent some time together, like no, we don't know each other, but I feel like she's a really interesting person and I think that bringing out her identities of artist and scientist is another part of the selling of science. Like who is a scientist and not all scientist consider themselves not artists. Many scientists are also artists, and so to have someone who had a biography in the shop or who proudly display information about other scientists who have these dual identities, like maybe someones a scientist and a rock climber, whatever. Scientists have very many, many things, they're multidimensional, so I think that, that's another point of opportunity to have emotional connection that could be explored with The Science Boutique, but in other types of retail environments, is emphasizing the person who is a scientist.

as much as I want to sell and engage with people who don't know science, the shop did start to make females in academia feel more comfortable expressing themselves in fashion. Because it's something that I had gotten criticized for, was wearing heels and make up, by my department head, that's why I left that department. So, there is also the component of not just the general public, but also making people feel more comfortable in a lab setting or when they have to go to campus and most of the people in their class are men and are people that they don't talk to. And they'll be like, "Oh, I like your uterus necklace. Where'd you get that?" And can make friends in academia that way, so there's that component too

There's a lot of nuances to what I do. One of them being... And it's so hard to explain unless you're in the science world, is I'm an artist and I think it's always been a hard thing for me because I'm part of academia, but I'm also an artist and my husband's a professional artist. So I'm in two worlds at once and this is me trying to blend them together. Just as much as I try to engage artists in science, I also try to engage science in art.

I just have to stress this because this is a big part of The Science Boutique, is it's not and nor will... It probably never will be a thing marketing towards kids, by any means. Because in my research I found that once you make something like, "Oh here it's for families and kids," then the older crowd, the young adults, singles, couples avoid it. and that's my audience so I don't want to make it something they'd want to avoid. I by no means alienate kids, but... The science engagement that I have in my mind and plan to do is very much for young adults and adults. And I think my demeanor, and this is something that we were talking about the other day too, is geared well towards those people, like having my personality be out there more when it comes to a science engagement can only do good, which is exciting.

And when we look at marketing and advertising and consumer marketing, there's two main classifications. One involves media impressions, so the metric is impressions. So, big companies, I'll say Ford, so they spend a billion dollars creating impressions which will be TV commercials and print commercials so those are brand informational impressions. But they also spend many, many millions of dollars on interactions. And so in general a human interaction or consumer interaction is much more expensive than an impression, but there's clear research that shows in the right environment with the right targeted audience it's also much, much more cost effective. But when you're doing an interaction you don't need to just convey information, because impressions can do that. The idea is to use an interaction to create emotional connectivity because when you have a live event, it's live. And in the case of The Science Boutique not only were the items for sale, but Charity as a scientist with a background in astrophysics was a live person and so being able to have more live interactions because the contact point is the human interaction.

So it also does bring curiosity back, as an adult. That gets beat out of kids. By the time they're in high school, they don't want to ask any questions [crosstalk] yeah. So, just bringing back that, or wonderings. I wonder what this is. I wonder what that is. And just having something that's cool that people maybe wonder about. For a lot of people they go their whole lives, or their whole adult lives, really not being curious, and not wondering. This is one of those small interactions, little small nuggets can really change the way that people perceive their world.

Critical thinking is, it's kind of like a muscle humans naturally have that atrophies. So one way that I do see that muscle being worked is I have, and it's very prominently displayed, a tardigrade shirt, "Live tiny. Die never." And so many times people are, "What is that?" And when I hear that, even if they're just walking by, I'll engage with them. I tell them, "Oh, it's a tardigrade or a water bear." And they're like, "Die never?" And I explain, "Oh, they're really resilient, you can do this, this, this, this." And this happens so much they go, "So what do we even do with them?" And I say, "Oh you know, we research them." They're like, "Oh, like for medicine?" If you're able to engage in a way that's prompting, then you're working out that critical thinking muscle. Even if it's a one minute interaction, I think that, that is really important.

it reminded me of looking at the Snapple cups. When you open Snapple and it's these little facts. It's like, "Oh." And sometimes I feel like I remember those things more because they were kind of out of place in my memory. So, it's like, "Oh." And even, we used to have candy that had the jokes in it, bongos or something like that Laffy Taffy. Yeah, yeah. It just seems like, "I get to go tell these jokes." It made me excited to know that one joke. So it's kind of like, I think, when you have that science fact, it may stick in people's minds more just, it's kind of the same thing as-it's out of place, so it kind of makes a different groove in your brain. Yeah. You're not reading it in a book, you're not on a science website. Yeah.

on the other hand also having it be legitimize as a form of research communication, if that makes sense. I get super excited, for example, when there's like big press conferences, when the image of the black hole came out. So we have the new image of the black hole on a bunch of jewelry when that image came out, one of the women at one of the press conferences was wearing a dress by one of the designers that we've worked with in the past. And now I've seen her even give more recent talks and she has a custom dress with the black hole image on it, by that same designer. And so that we weren't directly involved with, but we've supported that designer, given her images, helps connect her with other people for other projects.

So on one hand at the Grand Bazaar we wanted to blend in, we wanted to seem like a legit professional retail stand, which we are, but we are at the same time we hadn't really done it for the public before. But at the same time we sent you notice that we wanted to blend in and seem professional like that, at the same time we wanted to stand out, and be recognized as a little bit different. We definitely want to do engage people in conversation kind of whether or not we sold them things. And so it was a fine line that we were riding whether or not I really realized that at the time

a general feeling. The experience both that we shared in the preview of the event and the few hours at the event itself was a really positive experience. And when you're at something like the Greenway and it's a beautiful day and people. There was a young gentleman in the booth directly adjacent to The Science Boutique, I have his name written down somewhere. But the long and the short of it is his parents were from Boston, he was living in Florida, he came up with a new start up apparel company and he was selling sweatshirts and athletic pullovers with a specific message, it wasn't life is good, but something equally positive and optimistic. And he was just super exuberant and many of the people at the Greenway exhibit, there's something about a collection of entrepreneurs and artists and people that are passionate about their thing being there. And so one more reason why I think there's a good opportunity for science to be in that mix because in the right environment with all those elements there's already so much positivity. So people are predisposed, they want to be in a happy environment. They want to look at funny, quirky things and talk to people.

when you think about science retail, I guess this is a bit philosophical here, but it does get me thinking about, in terms of what it is of science, so to go back to this conversation I keep on trying to circle around, is that there's another element. When I do engagement with science, I've tried to cultivate engagement activities in which I explore the part of science that's about curiosity and about the unknown. And how the process, the nature of science, that's what I have found to be a thrilling source of engagement is to get people to consider what science is. The mystery of science. And there is a philosophical difference between that and other presentations of science as being like the chemical structure of something or the definition of something or a picture of something from science. It's a different type of what science is, but it gets to, it's very philosophical, but what is science and there are a lot of different ways to consider that and it's not just about the different disciplines, but it's also about what's the process of science. Not just what are the results or the discoveries, the outcomes of science research, but what is it in itself,

my background is pretty clear cut in the world of commerce and selling materials and I know in some areas in both academia and in art, selling and sales has a negative connotation. In many cases it's deserved, but in my mind if one of the goals is to sell science, maybe more figuratively than literally, but to create better engagement or more curiosity. Whether it's getting people to enroll in college programs or recognize the value in science or squash all this crazy no climate change discussion, ff people could just spell isotope, if I thought that would make a difference in the world I'd support it. But selling isn't bad, it's changing behavior, it's making an argument in a nonargumentative way of the value proposition of one thing versus another.

Emily probably doesn't want to criticize me. Should I step off? [crosstalk] No, I'm going to jump in and say, because what I was going to do was the opposite, is that I feel like I hit the jackpot and I got a master class in engagement from you and master class in strategic planning, real MBA level strategic planning from Nadia. There was so many thing after I went back and listened to the conversation that I was like, "Yup. Yup. Oh boy, we've been trying to do this for the last year." The things that you guys said were so on point. It was just like, I almost can't get over how well the timing worked out. It's been wonderful to have those conversations recorded because there's so much in there. At the time, it was definitely harder because the markets are hectic and we're just so bad at it. We don't do it every week like Charity does. But to have that precious two hours recorded and to have so much in there was amazing. And even, I was taking notes from Charity's conversation about, "Oh yeah, this is something we need to do. This is something we want to do." Its very, very, very valuable for what we're trying to do.

I went into doing craft fairs, not needing to make money. I was still working or in school or something. So it's a weird balance to be able to do both, I think. I don't know why, but I'm fairly successful. I haven't lost money at a market, ever. I don't know, I think part of it is the engagement does drive the sales more. I'm not so worried about money. I'm just worried about engaging with people and having a good time. I don't look at my numbers all the time and things like that. I'm not trying to make more money and sell more of the certain product. I'm just, I look at it as for the experience. I think there's a little bit of that money versus engagement mindset, which has also lended to me making money, too. I guess it's just that everybody's goals are different.

You want to sell stuff, but you also want to teach people stuff in the process and you could just use brand marketing, all the... Unfortunately all the human brainpower that's gone into how to sell people, stuff you could use all of that knowledge, and apply it to science communication in a commercial setting. And I think that exists. So there's a part of me that wants to push back a little bit and just say, "Hey, like guys, we could discuss this all right now." And try to figure it out, but I don't want to reinvent the wheel because I know that wheel is really smoothly grease then is running all the time, all around us to try and sell us stuff. So, why don't we bring in those people, if that is really our primary goal to sell stuff. And in that process, teach people something, because that's what advertising has been doing since mad men era. And we should probably just hop on that commercial bandwagon if we really want to do this well, and not in a way that's, I don't use the word amateur, but when we do that and we don't acknowledge that that expertise already exists in the world,

the way I would describe the way my business works is, yeah I'm an artist and a scientist. I guess the flow of my business is that the talent I have as an artist and what I produce as an artist with my science knowledge drives my sales and then my sales allow me to do more science engagement if that makes sense. So, if you're looking at that. Where what I create makes sales and the sales give me more allowance with science engagement, the problem is that the bigger you get with something like this, the less important the science engagement would become. Because when you get to more business minded people it'd be really hard for them to rationalize spending money on the science engagement if that's not necessarily the driving force of sales, but that's something I'm going to experiment more with in the future.